Considering how much we are asked to pray - with the family - at church -on our own - I was wondering how any of you that don't believe or have a hard time believing in a higher source get through this and not cause problems in their family.

I would think that TBM spouses would be putting pressure on us to pray at the table - Family Home Evenings - study time etc... Does anyone have the problem of the family not thinking they pray enough or do you feel uncomfortable saying all those prayers when you don't believe it is really going anywhere?

Just thought about it because as I make my transition back, I realize that I will be doing alot more praying with my family - something I have a hard time with right now - due to my agnosticsm - ever willing to try though - I do it for the kids in the event that it enriches their lives and eventually can make their own decisions, but all the while I feel rather goofy.

Any comments about this?

=sweetpea

I feel prayer has an important place in family life. The particulars of what one believes about the nature of Deity and the nature of prayer may not be so important as the opportunity to gather as a family or community and share a voice of thanksgiving, affirmation and seeking guidance.

Though I struggle with my limited understanding of Mormon culture, doctrine, dogma and theology I still hold an evolving belief in a Divine and benevalent creator. We hold family prayers to bring us together at the close of the day (and other times when we are together and feel it appropriate).

There are many reasons to pray and many varieties of prayer. Whether one believes that prayers are heard beyond the individual or group I feel that they still have power to help us change, grow and increase in unity.

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It takes all sorts to make a church and I see no sense in pretending to be the mormon norm when one is not.
----
"The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best -- and therefore never scrutinize or question." -Stephen Jay Gould
----
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King, Jr., Speech at Civil Rights March on Washington, August 28, 1963

Reply to : Dathon
Thanks Dathon!
I will keep that perspective in mind and attempt to gather my family together for more prayer - the fact is my husband is not a member and is not willing to be the lead in most family prayers - not that I think it is all his job, but would be easier to get the kids interested if Dad was. I do agree with you and find it to be a unifying and a special time, in the past, when I unwaivingly believed in everything the church offered, I did find it enriched my life and gave me guidance. But with my disappointment of finding the discrepancies of doctrine, I had gotten to the point where I was questioning everything and including prayer - whether it actually did any good or not. I do think it does, sometimes it is just not as noticeable. I think my return to church is also a return to finding my spiritual self as well, if that can be done without losing myself again in the process.

thanks,
=sweetpea

Prayer is yet another sticky point at our house. Because I no longer pray the same way we are taught in 'the church' - I won't offer a verbal prayer with my family. I won't open myself to the criticism.

One of the awkward highlights of prayer was last year when we attended my step-daughter's wedding. First night there - the woman we're staying with asked me to say the blessing on the food... I declined as graciously as possible, but my DH and my father-in-law were still totally mortified. I earned big points for it with my step-children, though.
It's nice to earn some sometimes, I lose so many, so often.

Another thing that came of that - the eternal black/white thinking... Since I wouldn't pray verbally - I obviously don't believe in Diety, right? *wrong* Geesh!

Not very helpful to you - but possibly entertaining...
Z;}

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-Live- transformatively, passionately, creatively - In such a way that you make love more likely to happen in the world. (Rev. Elizabeth Greene)

Reply to : ZJourney
Thanks ZJourney,
Ahhh, the perils of attempting to think outside the box! I guess my main concern is how to be a good example for my kids and give them the basics of the church doctrine without constricting their minds in the process. I could imagine them feeling relief not having to pray in most situations, but then to bring them up LDS and not include such basics as the ability to pray when called upon, might put them at a disadvantage within typical LDS groups - I know that sounds rather odd, that I want them to 'appear' as if they have it together and are firm believers, but it is mostly just to not call attention or end up with them alienated due to MY problem. I want them to gain as much as they can from being in the church and feeling comfortable with prayer seems like a basic to me.

As to what they will gain from it, only they will know and time will tell. Personally I have found that instead of a formal prayer time, I can gain just as much from spending some quiet moments pondering the pros and cons of a decision. However maybe not as much time being thankful for the simple things -as in praying over a meal, which I think it is an important lesson for children to be grateful for simple pleasures. As I intend to go back, I do intend to gain from my experience and my children as well - for I think there is much to gain, if you can keep it all in perspective. Jeez I haven't really prayed since I left last year, and I don't miss it a bit - except once or twice when one of the kids would stop me at bedtime and remind me to say a prayer with them - that was always hard for me at the time, and I would just go along with it -but feel really inadequate that I wasnt actively teaching about it - they would just feel the need to do so and I would respect that need. It just kills you when it comes from a 3 year old though!!

sincerely,
=sweetpea

Reply to : sweetpea

Well, my evolving idea of Deity is that we are created by a caring (I'll just use the name) God. I suppose my personal belief is more or less deistic (there is a link on the web site on the non-LDS research links labeled 'an interesting take on Christianity') in nature.

I believe that God is interactive to the extent that we can receive support from Him. It may be a spiritual hug, pat on the back, or even sometimes perhaps a solution to something. I feel that God is absolutely beyond petty and narrow religions. He is just too much to define in human terms.

I pray to that God. LDS folks use KJV language as they understand it. Modern evangelical Christians use modern language. I don't think God cares at all. I think prayer is a good thing to model for kids. I think it is important for us to believe and relate to a 'higher power' in a positive way. Sort of "Tevye-esque" from Fiddler on the Roof.

I encourage you to pray. It isn't so much HOW you pray as much as it is THAT you pray.

I hope this helps.

-------------------------
LDSman

Reply to : sweetpea

You hit on something I hadn't considered before. I don't want my kids to have challenges and be considered odd within the church because of *my* oddness and difficulty. I want them to be able to blend and still think outside that box. How do they learn that? I certainly haven't figured it out! My 9 year old daughter was supposed to give a prayer in Primary last week. She was *extremely* uncomfortable. She ended up staying home, mostly because her Dad didn't know about it, and I stayed home with a headache. Maybe it's time for yet another talk dealing with differences, language and such. Poor kids, I so hate that they are in the middle with this thing!

Anyway, thanks for the insight - it helps a lot in my stuggle with upcoming events and how to handle them. (My son turned 12 this month - and there is talk of baptism in the air again for my daughter...oui)

And did you make it to church this week? How did it go?

Love and Light,
Z;}

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-Live- transformatively, passionately, creatively - In such a way that you make love more likely to happen in the world. (Rev. Elizabeth Greene)

Message edited by: ZJourney on 07/09/2001 05:42:00

Reply to : ZJourney
No, I didn't go this last sunday! We ended up at a Catholic church! I had forgotten my newborn nephew was being baptised this weekend. My brother is inactive LDS married to a Catholic and all their kids are being baptised Catholic. It was rather interesting to watch the rituals of the priest and his 'helpers'(I don't know what else to call them)during the actual baptism they pour water over the babies head and bless him. I found it rather weird that he poured the water over the babies entire face(having the baby squirm and gasp for air as he was saying his blessing) because they also baptised a baby girl and he only poured the water on her forehead to have it drip down the back of her head.... maybe he was trying to baptise him 'harder' to ensure his purity? Who knows, but it all comes very clear that this stuff is so man-made and ritualistic! During communion(sacrament) everyone that is interested comes down to meet the priest and receive a wafer and some wine... my mom says,"see sacrament is the same everywhere" HA! I said except they serve Zinfindel!!!(They actually were serving Zinfindel wine with the sacrament-even to the kids)

Truthfully, I am glad I am LDS, because the catholics cannot relax at all during their church service...up and down reciting things... no time to doze! The kids were just as restless and my middle daughter was enthralled with their rituals.. she kept making the sign of the cross on her chest and dipping her fingers in the water bowl at the entrance!

I couldn't help but consider how we are taught as LDS to view Joseph SMith as a prophet and how that bothered me once I discovered the church history, but the Catholics are asked to view a variety of individuals as divine 'saints' and are taught to pray to the different saints and the virgin Mary. It really isn't that much different, but the Mormons get so much flak for upholding JS.

When it comes down to it , you realize religion is all about community and family. The gathering each week is a way to touch base and unify each other. The prayer time and such- the rituals we perform are rights of passage - baptism, a way of initiating one into the fold, it draws family and friends together. I have seen this with the Catholics and the LDS. As a new 'unbeliever', I realize the significance of this. I think
when kept in that perspective it makes it easier to swallow!

Ok, there is next week to start back!......To be continued....

-------------------------
=sweetpea

Reply to Sweetpea 1:

You wrote:
When it comes down to it , you realize religion is all about community and family. The gathering each week is a way to touch base and unify each other. The prayer time and such- the rituals we perform are rights of passage - baptism, a way of initiating one into the fold, it draws family and friends together. I have seen this with the Catholics and the LDS. As a new 'unbeliever', I realize the significance of this. I think
when kept in that perspective it makes it easier to swallow!


---
Dathon:

Amen!! Eureka and Halellujah!!!

It's about family and community unity.

We were taught/expected to believe it was about some external objective but unsubstantiable TRUTH about the nature of Deity and our relationship with Deity. I feel we all need a connection with the Divine, our families and friends. I don't believe that connection should be regimented or institutionally enforced or mediated. OTOH people seem to want an institution/organization to set the bounds and provide the context for worship. For me consensus and tolerance are extremely important. One reason I belong here is my impatience and lack of agreement with what passes for consensus sometimes in our wards, stakes, regions, etc.

A certain level of bureacracy is inevitable when the procedure becomes more important than people I worry.


-------------------------
It takes all sorts to make a church and I see no sense in pretending to be the mormon norm when one is not.
----
"The most erroneous stories are those we think we know best -- and therefore never scrutinize or question." -Stephen Jay Gould
----
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King, Jr., Speech at Civil Rights March on Washington, August 28, 1963

Reply to : sweetpea1

If kept in the perspective - it is definitely less difficult! Trouble for me is keeping that perspective.

My Dad was Catholic and converted to Mormonism to marry my mother. A few year ago I attended my first Catholic service (Good Friday)with UU Minister and friends. I *loved* it! It was an 'ah-ha' moment when I realized that is a part of my heritage too. It was also very interesting talking with one of these friends who used to be Catholic. Her experience of the service was so different from mine. I was awed and fascinated. She bristled. Made me wonder what aspects of Mormonism my perceptions and early experiences color so that I don't see the beauty.